engineering technical analysis september 11 cell phones

Part 1 of a mid-2003 discussion between SPINE members about Cell phone Calls and 9/11


Part 2 is HERE


Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 19

  Posted: May 31, 2003 - 11:33 PM   

Reports of cell phone calls made from the 'hijacked' airliners on 9-11 was one of the oddities in the 'official version' of events which first alerted Professor Kee Dewdney to the possibility it is essenitally fraudulent.

Dewdney is not the only person who has raised this issue in the exploding internet debate about what really took place on 9-11. But he has probably done more work on the topic than anyone else - including a series of three self-funded practical experiments under the name of 'Project Achilles'.

The results of the third and concluding 'Project Achilles' experiment can be viewed HERE on this site. The Feral News website has reports of all three experiments and the accompanying media releases - start HERE

This forum is open to allcomers. We encourage your reports and comments on this specific topic - whether supportive or not.

Are cellphone calls possible in large aircraft? At what altitude and under what conditions? Please share your thoughts and experiences here.
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  Posted: Jun 17, 2003 - 01:11 AM   

I want to start by saying that i am sure the Bush and media releases have to be wrong. But i want to bring up some topics so that if there are holes in our story, better to debunk them now, than later.
On the issue of cascading cell phone calls...
I was an engineer for a cell company. In CDMA the most common of technologies used today( but not the only) cascading doesnt occur in the normal sense. That term is used for older systems. There may be irreguarities in the system statistics, but part of my job was to overview stats and sometimes we would see abnormal stats and just attribute them to technical problems with the cell stie hardware, or maybe to several people trying to access the site at one time, such as at a football game etc... Being an engineer, you just dont attribute that kind of thing to an aircraft.
Second, i would like to know if there was an attempt to track the calls. The calls are on record and "backups" are made and held for years by law. I suppose you may need a subpeona to get access to them though. Also in regard to records, iot would be hard to obtain them for another reason. You would have to know the rpcise postion of the aircraft when the call was made, because the call would be logged at as home "switch", different switches handle different areas, and with a plane moving at that speed, the calls would have to make a "hard handoff" between switches ( which is not common, and where most calls will drop EVEN on the ground), but in any event, both switches would have to be looked in for the calls.
I have to say that the owner of the phone, from the bill on the account can also show all of the calls made including the time and where from. All of this is availible from the switch where the phone is registered. Anyone who has a cell phone can request a detailed bill, some people get them automatically ( i do). I guess you could ask the family for the info? If they dont have it they could request it from the service provider.
Third, I do not believe that several calls were placed and connected at 30k feet, but at the same time, i have a very hard time digesting the notion that several people talked to loved ones, and nobody put up a red flag ( in regard to "Pearl" and that operatives were faking these voices).Given - (Mom? This is Mark Brigham) does sound a bit strange?, but it just seems to hard to think that all this was pulled off with no major glitch. I think it more feasable that the plane may have been flying low and slow and that the calls were made, but then at that time the plane should have been at a higher altitude.
Fourth, and also in regard to 3, if the aircraft were at alower altitude, AND ALSO if "plane swapping" took place, where one plane had to land and another take off in its place(x) the air traffic controller would notice the altitude changes and have to be either in on the "scheme" or be very asleep at the wheel, which they are trained not to be.
Back to cell phones, is it possible to find out the altitude and speed of the plane when the supposed calls were made? (Apologies if this is there and i just missed it in the reading).
My first post here, just trying to throw some light on posibilities, or eliminations of some if need be.
any replies welcome
Brad Mayeux

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  Posted: Jun 17, 2003 - 06:02 PM   

The switches intrique me. Would it be possible to fix the plane's location at a certain time by checking the switches that may have responded to calls?
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  Posted: Jun 18, 2003 - 12:51 AM   

"AND ALSO if "plane swapping" took place, where one plane had to land and another take off in its place(x) the air traffic controller would notice the altitude changes"

This aspect would be taken care of by having the plane's transponders turned off. As such, the ATC controller would not have any idea what altitude the planes were at during the time of the switch, or at any other time since it is the transponder which reports the altitude data (as well as the IFF ident code), not the radar system.
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  Posted: Jun 18, 2003 - 12:56 AM   

mothra wrote:
The switches intrique me. Would it be possible to fix the plane's location at a certain time by checking the switches that may have responded to calls?
Yes deifinately. especially since so many independant calls were made from different phone#s.
From the log files, even from 1 phone call, there may be several cell sites "towers" involved ( the way CDMA works several sites can be involved in a call at one time), it is possible to triangulate from those sites the exact position, there are other methods in the log files such as timing which can tell how far away the caller was( with a little math).
The cell sites, or towers, are different tham switches. A switch is where the call goes to record billing info, and where it makes decisions on what other cells should be ready to accept the call in that area.
A Switch controls several sites ( depending on the size of the company, and area it owns by the FCC at that location) The switch could handle 20, or hundreds of sites.
With a plane moving 3-500mph it would travel out of service from 1 switch to another in just a few minuits. The problem here is most switches do not talk to each other well, usually the call will drop between the switches ( even on the ground at 50mph) I have done several trials of this TRYING to make it work, it very rareley does if ever. So the call would have to be re-initiated on the next switch after the call droppped. in either case, both switches would have the info logged.
There are imaginary geographical lines in the sand between switches. If we can prove that a call was continued from area 1 ( switch X) abd area 2 ( switch Y). that would gain us some assurance that the call did not happen. ( this would be a second option if we can not gain the data from the switch itself).

If we could get a timeline ( i know its there), but one correlating to the geographical position of where the plane "supposedly"was, then put this on a map ( i have the software), then overlay the switch boundries.
We could determine if a call was "supposedly "made and continued though these boundries ( which is an almost imposibility).
If they were,
We have GOOD data !!!

Great Question.
Brad Mayeux
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  Posted: Jun 18, 2003 - 02:31 AM   

imagine wrote:
....There are imaginary geographical lines in the sand between switches. If we can prove that a call was continued from area 1 ( switch X) abd area 2 ( switch Y). that would gain us some assurance that the call did not happen. 

Are you really saying that if a call is listed in the records as continuing from switch X to switch Y that this would be a fraudulent entry?

Is there an accepted percentage estimate available in the industry for dropped connections between switches, even at the 50mph ground conditions?

Do we, or anyody else, have a good idea what the breakdown in calls were from the 'official story' as to the different technologies that were used to make the various calls (i.e. CDMA, TDMA, GSM, AMPS, plane phones)?

Also, wouldn't another factor that (doesn't disprove) makes the official scenario less likely is that most all networks, especially the newer digital ones have good coverage (and smaller cells) only in high population and ground transportation corridors? As far as I know airliners don't follow the highways, but then this all happened on the denser 'right' coast.
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  Posted: Jun 19, 2003 - 01:42 AM   


Are you really saying that if a call is listed in the records as continuing from switch X to switch Y that this would be a fraudulent entry?

Not necessarily fraudulent but not a good probabillity. I have worked on trying to get these handoffs working, it depends a lot on which 2 switches ( and/or companies) are involved. there are a few in the US that work. That info is easy to find out though. If we have the exact geographical info, you can just call the providers cust service lines and ask if it works, or i have friends in the indusrty that can find out.


Do we, or anyody else, have a good idea what the breakdown in calls were from the 'official story' as to the different technologies that were used to make the various calls (i.e. CDMA, TDMA, GSM, AMPS, plane phones)?

That is a very important question, I think this should be persued if possible.


Also, wouldn't another factor that (doesn't disprove) makes the official scenario less likely is that most all networks, especially the newer digital ones have good coverage (and smaller cells) only in high population and ground transportation corridors? As far as I know airliners don't follow the highways, but then this all happened on the denser 'right' coast.

I had mentioned this in a post prior to this board. As far as the size of the cell its bassically irrelivant. A 80ft tower, or a 200 ft tower wouldnt make much difference to a plane at 30,000ft, but, in the city, while there is more coverage most new technologies "downtilt" the antennas, which gives better performance to the local area ( this also makes the signal much weaker the higher you go).
In planning a system, most carriers dont spend a ton of money on a site where it will not be used ( over farmland, woods etc...) There will be series of towers along a major highway, usually 2-5 miles apart.
True planes do not fly according to highways. Though i am not very familiar with the area of the crash site. I may take it upon myself to plot it out on a map and get a general idea of what i think the coverage may have been.

What would be very helpfull, if anyone has the info , is the altitude of the plane and the direction/location during the calls.

Brad Mayeux
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  Posted: Jun 20, 2003 - 02:35 AM   

As far as the size of the cell its bassically irrelivant. A 80ft tower, or a 200 ft tower wouldnt make much difference to a plane at 30,000ft

Sorry imagine , what I meant to say was the coverage radius difference between the older AMPS and the newer digital phones. Meaning that the digital phones have even less coverage away from the highways in rural areas, correct?
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  Posted: Jun 23, 2003 - 11:27 PM   

Well I have worked with both. They are different technologies, and usually but not always on different frequencies. The digital ( CDMA) needs less power to do the same job, thats why they have less power. The hight of the tower does affect how far away , from the highway lets say, that the call can be made in either technology, so they tend to build taller towers on the highways to reach farther. Thats just a tech note, like i said though the height is negliable with a plane at 30k ft. Both technologies build out relatively evenly in the amount of towers, one reason some people think that the old amps give better range is that they have been around longer and have more sites in general.
Just another tech note...
The older AMPS phones are all most all at 800 Mhz while the new CDMA are at 1900Mhz. 800Mhz does penetrate better through walls trees, etc... while higher freqs can travel further when there are no losses due to physical obstructions.
( If you are off of a rural hwy, you MAY get a little better reception with AMPS ( low freqs) due to trees stopping the high freq CDMA signals).
One more note,
more sites, doesnt mean better reception in CDMA beause the phone works on 1 frequency. It can decode up to 3 signals at 1 time, but all other signals are just interference to the phone. ( In AMPS when the phone hops from 1 site to the next it changes freqs, in CDMA it decodes different signals on the same freq)
You have just completed cell phone engineering 101.

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  Posted: Jun 25, 2003 - 06:49 PM   

I was under the impression that AMPS cells had a 10+ mile coverage radius versus about 5 miles for the digital versions.

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  Posted: Jun 26, 2003 - 01:44 AM   

To a small extent thats true, but it depends on a lot of things. types of antenna used, height of the tower, trees/other obstacles type of phone ( some AMPS phones are 3 watts max for the old car mount type with antennas on the roof). I have designed a cdma site and had it working at 10 miles on several occasions. Lots of variables.
Frequency - Amps and CDMA are protocalls, not freqs, MOST AMPS are on 800 mhz and MOST CDMA are on 1900, but not always. There are some CDMA systems at 800 Mhz, these may travel a bit farther through tree clutter etc...
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  Posted: Jul 01, 2003 - 07:22 PM   

On the matter of cellphones, there are two issues if we're going to treat this topic properly: a) the calls themselves and the conditions under which they were made leading to an assessment of whether or not they could have been made as described, b) documented evidence that cell phone calls were claimed to have been made by the majpr media.

We must not overlook the fact that all the work in the world could be undermined in a trice by a statement that, well, a few media outlets may have said cell phones, but they meant "airfones. (those back-of-the seat hamdsets that operate through the aircraft's antenna system. (Verizon etc)

We must therefore develop the evidence that remains on the internet, as well as searching other sources. I would very much like to begin a thread on this fundamentally important question.

Does anyone have the documentation ready to hand? A Bush speech would be ideal. So would statements in siome of the US' leading papers such as the NY Times, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post, Boston Globe, etc. Only with solid documentation can we make it impossible for possible alternate perps to sneak out of this one.

Kee Dewdney
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  Posted: Jul 02, 2003 - 11:37 PM   

Sorry if this is confusing, it is cut and paste from different articles to get the most info without too much stuff we dont need.
But i think its a start of a database. Hope it helps.

45 people onboard

Todd Beamer - Airphone 9:45
13 minutes with GTE operator trying to use his company's Airfone account then re-routed to a Verizon supervisor
9:45 a.m.
He could see three hijackers, armed with knives. One insisted he had a bomb. Twenty-seven of the passengers had been herded to the rear of the plane, where the hijacker with the bomb was guarding them, he said. Two hijackers were in the cockpit. A fourth was in first class.

source 2)"nine other passengers and five flight attendants had been herded to the back of the plane, said Beamer's friend Doug MacMillan, who heard a transcript of the call. The rest of the passengers were in first class. The pilot and co- pilot had been taken from the cockpit and were nowhere to be seen. It doesn't seem like they know how to fly the plane," Beamer said of the hijackers.
His group was being guarded by a man who claimed to have explosives strapped to his midsection. Beamer, a basketball and baseball player in college and a take-charge guy, said he thought he and the others could "jump the terrorist with the bomb."

In the background, the supervisor could hear screaming. But Beamer's voice never wavered.

CeeCee-attend. cell 2 calls
police officer and detective for six years
call 1
At 9:47 a.m., the answering machine picked up a call from his wife, CeeCee, stranded in the back of the airplane
Lorne Lyles could hear what he now believes was the sound of men planning a counterattack."They're getting ready to force their way into the cockpit," she told him.CeeCee Lyles let out a scream."They're doing it! They're doing it! They're doing it!" she said. Lorne Lyles heard a scream. Then his wife said something he couldn't understand. Then the line went dead

Marion Britton, 1 call ( cell or airphone?)
53, assistant director of the Census Bureau's New York office, phoned a longtime friend, Fred Fiumano. All he can remember is that it was "sometime after 9:30

Britton was crying. She had been hijacked, she told Fiumano, and two people on the plane already had been killed.

Lauren Catuzzi Grandcolas Airphone
She'd been scheduled to take a later flight that day, but rebooked to get home sooner
There's a little problem with the plane. I'm fine and comfortable for now.

-Elizabeth Wainio - Airphone ( shared with Grandcolas)
Mom, we're being hijacked. I just called to say good bye,
"I need to go," she said. "They're getting ready to break into the cockpit. I love you. Goodbye."
10:00 a.m. Flight 93 -- last known human communication from passenger Elizabeth Wainio to her stepmother

Ed Felt - Cell Phone
a software engineer for BEA Systems
In 2000, he was awarded a patent for inventing a system of updating and authenticating passwords within a network to prevent unauthorized users from posing as legitimate users
At 9.58am a 911 call - the last mobile phone contact from Flight 93 - was made from one of the airliner's toilets by passenger Edward Felt.
"He did hear some sort of an explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane, but he didn't know where. And then we lost contact with him." Glenn Cramer has now been gagged by the FBI
also said there were four men wearing red bandanas and wielding box cutters

Mark Bingham - Cell Phone
owned a public relations firm, the Bingham Group

Bingham slipped into a seat in aisle 4-D, next to Thomas Burnett. Nine minutes after Hall dropped him off, Bingham picked up his cell phone.
He called his mother, Alice Hoglan, 15 minutes before the plane crashed and told her that the plane had been taken over by three men who claimed to have a bomb. Hoglan said her son told her that some passengers planned to try to regain control of the plane.
9:42 Eastern time. Kathy's nephew, Mark Bingham was on the line.
"Alice, talk to Mark," Kathy said, handing her the phone. "He's been hijacked.""Mom? This is Mark Bingham

Thomas E. Burnett Jr - Cell Phone 3 calls
a senior vice president and chief operating officer of Thoratec Corp., a medical research and development company
6:20 a.m. -- 9:20 Eastern time.
They've already knifed a guy.Call the authorities," Tom told his wife over his cell phone. There is a bomb on board. Call the FBI. Around 9:30, Deena Burnett's phone rang again "I told him a lot of planes had been hijacked Were they commercial planes, airliners, he asked her

In his final call, he told her that he and two other passengers had decided to act rather than face certain death. "We're going to try to do something,

Jeremy Glick - Airphone ?
1)Jeremy Glick picked up a GTE Airfone just before 9:30 a.m
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/2 ... toryp7.asp

2)Jeremy Glick, 31, from West Milford, New Jersey, He called his wife, Liz, and in-laws in New York on a cell phone to tell them the plane had been hijacked
http://www.wtc-worldtradecenter.com/uni ... ht-93.html
( 2 different stories, the first may have meant that he called his wife on HER cell phone)
In the ensuing 20-minute conversation, he calmed his wife as best he could, joking that he and his fellow passengers might assault the hijackers with butter knives from the in-flight breakfast

Glick said that one of the hijackers "had a red box he said was a bomb, and one had a knife of some nature
Lyz recalls no background noise. No commotion. He described the men as Arabic-looking, wearing red headbands, carrying knives. One told passengers he had a bomb.

Sandy Bradshaw-ATTND 11yrs
Her husband, Phil, a US Airways pilot. 1 call ( cell or airphone ?)
Bradshaw said he took his wife's call about 9:30 a.m
Bradshaw thinks they talked for five or 10 minutes
that would put the attack at 9:40
"I don't know who's flying the plane or where we are," she said.

Sandy Bradshaw, who was trained never to spill hot coffee on a paying customer, slipped into the airplane's galley and began filling pitchers with boiling water.

other interests...( no calls)
The pilot was Jason Dahl, 43( wasnt supposed to pilot 93). Sandy, a United flight attendant, went onto United's computer system and shifted him to Flight 93

Wanda Green, She'd phoned her best friend, fellow flight attendant Donita Judge, who opened United's computerized schedule and shifted Green to the Sept. 11 flight.

All said that the hijackers were wearing RED bandanas. The official color of Al Queda is green, red is not anacceptable color for Muslim garb
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steveseymo ... land1.html
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  Posted: Aug 05, 2003 - 01:42 AM   

THere are several inconsistancies here. I want to make this a project, but here is a rough first draft.
Sorry for the cut and paste, but i put a few articles together from different sources. They are not in chronological order(so read the dates) and some info was cut out that did not pertain to the discussion, so you can use the link if you want the whole story.
Any additions, or comments are encouraged.


--8:20 a.m.: American Airlines flight 77 departs

http://www.unansweredquestions.net/time ... 30502.html
March 5, 2002
Throughout the working day, they would speak on what they
called the "bat phone".

It was her last newspaper interview. On September 11, American Airlines Flight 77 plunged
into the Pentagon with Barbara Olson on board. It was Ted Olson's 61st birthday that day and
Barbara had delayed flying to Los Angeles so they could celebrate over dinner the night
That morning, a nightmare began to unfold in the room where we are now sitting. "Someone
rushed in and told me what had happened. I went into the other room, where there's a
television," Olson says. "It went through my mind, 'My God, maybe - Barbara's on an
airplane, and two airplanes have been crashed', you know."
Then his secretary told him that Barbara was on the line. "My first reaction when I heard she was on the phone was relief, because I knew that she wasn't on one of those two airplanes." But Barbara then explained calmly that she had been herded to the back of the Boeing 757 she was on, along with the other passengers."She had had trouble getting through, because she wasn't using her cellphone, she was using the phone in the passengers' seats," says Olson. "I guess she didn't have her purse, because she was calling collect, and she was trying to get through to the Department of Justice, which is never very easy."
He was able to tell her about the World Trade Centre attacks before the line went dead, then he called his departmental command centre to let them know another plane had been hijacked.
( OK I know he probabally has multiple lines, but woulndt he wait for her to call back)?

The phone rang again and it was Barbara."She wanted to know, 'What can I tell the pilot? What can I do? How can I stop this?' I tried to find out where she thought she was - I wanted to know where the airplane was and what direction it was going in, because I thought that was the first step to being able to do something.
"We both tried to reassure one another that everything was going to be OK, she was still
alive, the plane was still up in the air. But I think she knew that it wasn't going to be OK and I knew it wasn't going to be OK."
They were able to have "personal exchanges", he says, before they were cut off in
mid-conversation. "It just stopped. It could be the impact, although I think she would have There's no point in speculating."
As soon as he heard a plane had crashed at the Pentagon, he says, "I knew it was her".
( at that time there was a frenzy of reports of multiple hijackings, not to mention he just said he didnt know where she was, the plane was hijacked, how did he know it was near the pentagon, it had been in the air for about an hour)

The air-traffic controllers of the FAA explained to reporters of the Christian Science Monitor that, at around 8:55 am, the Boeing had descended to 29,000 feet and had not responded to radio calls.

Then one of the secretaries rushed in and said, "Barbara is on the phone." And I jumped for the phone, so glad to hear Barbara's voice. And then she told me, "Our plane has been hijacked." This was some time -- must have been 9:15 or 9:30

( Cell phones dont work above 5-10,000 ft http://feralnews.com/issues/911/dewdney ... 0427.html)


http://www.unansweredquestions.net/time ... 1401c.html
September 14, 2001
KING: The next time you hear from her is on the plane?
OLSON: Actually, I heard from her before that. Before she boarded the plane -- this plane
was scheduled to leave, and I guess did leave, at 8:10 in the morning.
She called me -- we always did this with one another. We always called one another a lot
during the day, sometimes very briefly. But she called me around -- it must have been around
7:30 or 7:40, before she got on the plane. We just talked to one another and how anxious I was for her to come back and how anxious she was to return. But then I did not hear from her again until after she was in the air.
KING: And the plane is now -- she is flying. She calls you, you're at the Justice
Department, right? Solicitor General's office is at the Justice?
KING: She calls you and what?
OLSON: I had heard a few moments before -- a few minutes before -- of the disaster occurring at the World Trade Center. There is a television set in the back of my office. I turned it on and watched with horror the film being replayed of the airplanes crashing in to the World Trade Center.
KING: Both crashes?
OLSON: Both. The second one had just occurred, I think, when I had turned it on, but they occurred in such a fashion they had film of it, which as this station -- I think I was
watching CNN. And I was relieved because at the moment that I heard there was hijacked
planes, I was both terrified and fearful for everything that was going on. But I made a
mental calculation, because the first thing that comes in to your mind is that Barbara's
plane, could that be one of those planes? And I thought oh, thank goodness, it can't be her plane. I'm sounding rather selfish here. That just went through my mind because there wasn't enough time for that airplane to have gotten to New York.

--9:02 a.m.: United Airlines flight 175 strikes the World Trade Center


KING: So the television is on. You've see the buildings, both in disaster mode, and you are
talking to your wife who has just been hijacked.
KING: And she says?
OLSON: She says we have just been hijacked. I had two conversations, Larry, and my memory is -- tends to mix the two of them up because of the emotion of the events. We spoke for a minute or two, then the phone was cut off. Then we she got through again, and we spoke for another two or three or four minutes. She told me that the plane had been hijacked, that she had been -- she told me that they did not know she was making this phone call.She told me that she had been herded to the back of the plane. She mentioned that they had used knives and box cutters to hijack the plane. She mentioned that the pilot had announced that the plane had been hijacked. I believe she said that. And she -- I had to tell her about the two airplanes that had hit the World Trade Center.
KING: Why?
OLSON: I just felt that I had to. I had to tell her. I will look back at that and wonder
about that same question myself, but I had to tell her.
KING: You're the kind of couple, knowing you guys, you tell each other everything.
OLSON: We are extraordinary close.
KING: This was a mad love affair?
OLSON: Yes, it was. I could not have kept that from her.
KING: What did she say when you told her?
OLSON: I think she must have been partially in shock from the fact that she was on a
hijacked plane. She absorbed the information. We then both reassured one another this plane was still up in the air. This plane was still flying, and this was going to come out OK. I told her, "It's going to come out OK." She told me it was going to come out OK. She said, I love you.
KING: Didn't she ask about the pilot? Was the pilot in the back with her then?
OLSON: I don't know. But she told me at one point in this conversation: "What shall I tell
the pilot? What can I tell the pilot to do?"
KING: Implying he must have been back there with her.
OLSON: Either the pilot or possibly the copilot or part of the crew. That was the
implication, but I didn't really think to ask that specific question.
KING: Did she sound terrified, anxious, nervous, scared?
OLSON: No, she didn't. She sounded very, very calm.
KING: Typical Barbara.
OLSON: In retrospect, enormously, remarkably, incredibly calm. But she was calculating -- I mean, she was wondering "What can I do to help solve this problem?" Barbara was like that. Barbara could not have not done something.
KING: What's going through you?
OLSON: My -- I am in -- I guess I'm in shock. And I'm horrified because I really -- while I
had reassured her that I thought everything was going to be OK, I was pretty sure everything was not going to be OK. I by this time, had made the calculation that these were suicide persons, bent on destroying as much of America as they could.
KING: Did you hear other noises on the plane?
OLSON: No, I did not. At one point, when she asked me what to say to the pilot, I asked her if she had any sense for where she was. I had, after the first conversation, called our
command center at the Department of Justice to alert them to the fact that there was another hijacked plane and that my wife was on it and that she was capable of communicating, even though this first phone call had been cut off.
So I wanted to find out where the plane was. She said the plane had been high hijacked shortly after takeoff and they had been circling around, I think were the words she used. She reported to me that she could see houses. I asked her which direction the plane was going. She paused -- there was a pause there. I think she must have asked someone else. She said I think it's going northeast.

(Actually northeast would have been toward New York, when the plane was hijacked it was over ?, well it was well west of DC and NY, but then she said it was going in circles, so she had absolutely no idea where they were)
( In retrospect the plane did go north east JUST before crashing into the Pentagon, but that doesnt fit the timeline of the phone call)

KING: Which would have been toward the Pentagon?
OLSON: Depending upon where the plane was, .
KING: Dulles...
OLSON: Dulles is west of the Pentagon. So east of Dulles is the Pentagon. And this plane had been in the air for, I think, over an hour. So I don't know where she was when she called.
KING: They didn't do any direct flight right to the Pentagon.
OLSON: No, no. Her plane took off at 8:10. Its impact with the Pentagon must have been
around 9:30 or so. You will probably be able to reconstruct that or have that information as to the time of the impact.

(He was absolutely sure it didt travel straight to the Pentagon, and was also sure that it didnt go to New York ?)

KING: How does the second conversation end?
OLSON: We are -- we segued back and forth between expressions of feeling for one another and this effort to exchange information. And then the phone went dead. I don't know whether it just got cut off again, because the signals from cell phones coming from airplanes don't work that well, or whether that was the impact with the Pentagon.
It was not -- I stayed glued to my television. I did call the command center again. Someone came down so I can impart this information and also to be there in case she called again. But it was very shortly thereafter that news reports on the television indicated that there had been an explosion of some sort at the Pentagon.
KING: Did you immediately know then that's what it was?
OLSON: I did. I mean I didn't want to. I did and I didn't want to, but I knew. But it was a long time before what had happened at the Pentagon -- or it seemed like a long time -- before it was identified as an airplane. Then the first report that I heard was that it was a commuter plane, and then I heard it was an American Airlines plane.I called some people, I guess maybe just because I had to share the dread that was living with me. I called my mother and I called my son. I said I didn't think -- I thought that -- I was hoping that it wasn't true, but I was very worried. I did not want them to see
something on television and hear her name.

(actually the first reports of the pentagon explosion were of a truck bomb if i remember correctly, how was he sure it was his wifes Jet)?

KING: Did you hear from the president or the attorney general?
OLSON: Oh, yes, I did. I heard from the president. Well, he was in the air. I can't tell you
exactly what time of day that was on the 11th. I also heard from the attorney general. I
also heard from the vice president and many other of our officials of government. And of
course, scores of other people, including you and your wife and...

September 12, 2001
Terrified passengers and crew on board the hijacked planes used their mobile phones to make desperate calls for help, it emerged today.
As armed hijackers moved through the planes stabbing airline crew to force them to
co-operate, people locked themselves into lavatories to ring relations and emergency
services. On the American Airlines Flight 77 from Washington, television reporter Barbara Olson, 46, locked herself in the lavatory to call her husband, Solicitor General Theodore Olson.

( I guess that Airphone had an extension cord? The cord on an airphone will not reach into the bathroom, this suggests she was using a cell. Cell phones in planes dont work over 5-10,000 ft. inside a sealed bathroom would insert an extra 3-6 dB of loss. I am a cell phone engineer and design cellular systems, that means signal quality, which would have been nearly impossibe anyway would have been cut to 1/3 to 1/6th stregth. Ted states that the quality of the connection was CLEAR !)
( I would be happy if someone would verify the airphone reach of the cord- to the bathroom on a 757)
Seconds after she spoke to him for the second time, her plane crashed into the Pentagon, reportedly killing all 60 people on board. Her distraught husband, a friend of President Bush who fought for him during the legal battle over the disputed presidential election, said: "She called from the plane while it was being hijacked. I wish it wasn't so but it is."
A spokesman for the family said Mrs Olson, a mother and grandmother, only decided to take
the flight at the last minute, to join her husband for his birthday.
He said: "She called and said she was locked in the toilet and the plane had been hijacked.
She said they had box-cutters and knives. They had rounded up the passengers at the back of the plane. She referred to them as more than one. There was nothing she could do. She said to her husband 'What shall I tell the pilot to do?'

Mrs Olson's plane crashed into the Pentagon at 9.43am local time, causing an explosion which destroyed six storeys of the military command centre.
http://www.unansweredquestions.net/time ... 91201.html


y Tim O'Brien
September 12, 2001 Posted: 2:06 AM EDT (0606 GMT)
WASHINGTON -- Barbara Olson, a conservative commentator and attorney, alerted her husband, Solicitor General Ted Olson, that the plane she was on was being hijacked Tuesday morning, Ted Olson told CNN. A short time later the plane crashed into the Pentagon. Barbara Olson is presumed to have died in the crash.
Her husband said she called him twice on a cell phone from American Airlines Flight 77,
which was en route from Washington Dulles International Airport to Los Angeles.

Ted Olson told CNN that his wife said all passengers and flight personnel, including the
pilots, were herded to the back of the plane by armed hijackers. The only weapons she
mentioned were knives and cardboard cutters.
She felt nobody was in charge and asked her husband to tell the pilot what to do.
Ted Olson notified the Justice Department command center immediately.
He told CNN that his wife had originally been booked on a flight Monday, but delayed her
departure because Tuesday was his birthday and she wanted to be with him in the morning.
Barbara Olson was a former federal prosecutor and served as Chief Investigative Counsel to
the House Committee on Government Reform and Oversight during its probe into the Clinton
Administration "Travelgate" scandal.
She had appeared frequently as a commentator on CNN.


Now for the FOX report
by Alan Colmes, Sean Hannity, and Brit Hume
Fox News - Hannity and Colmes
September 14, 2001

COLMES: Many of you remember Barbara Olson, who was a frequent guest on this program and a good friend. Ms. Olson was a passenger on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon, and earlier today, Brit Hume spoke with her husband, Ted Olson.
BRIT HUME, FOX ANCHOR: Ted, your wife's name was the first victim's name that we heard from the crash at the Pentagon site. And I know that she spoke to you.
I'd like to convey, on behalf of all of us here, our condolences to you and our best wishes to you, sir.
I think some of your viewers know this, but Barbara was on your program and Tony Snow's program from time to time. And she was -- she loved to be with the people here at Fox. The people were very kind to her. And I very much appreciate that.
HUME: And we liked having her here.
I know that she called you while that plane that had taken off from Dulles was in the air. Could you describe those conversations?
OLSON: Yes. There were two conversations.
The plane took off at 8:10 in the morning -- or that's when it was scheduled to take off. And that's when I believe it took off. I had been in my office at the Department of Justice. Someone told me that there had been the two strikes that occurred at the World Trade Center. I turned on the television set in my office and watched, as I guess all of us did, this tragedy unfold at the World Trade Center.
One of the gals in my office came in and said, "Barbara's on the phone." And I picked up the phone. We spoke for a couple of -- maybe a minute or two before we were cut off.
HUME: Did you have a clear...
OLSON: It was clear.
It was cut off. And then a few moments later, we had another telephone conversation that lasted for three or four minutes. I was at first relieved to hear Barbara on the telephone, because panic strikes immediately. My wife had taken off on a plane. Two airplanes had crashed into the World Trade Center. I, of course, like any other person, felt potentially devastated, panicky a little bit.
And I made a calculation that it couldn't possibly -- that airplane couldn't possibly have gotten to New York, although it could have been close.

( in a previous statement he was SURE it couldnt have been her plane, now he kind of backtracks, sounds like he had a calculator and geographical map of the US, i guess he could have made a call and got the flight speed of a Boing 757? )

But then to hear her voice was reassuring and calming. But then her next words out of her mouth were that, "Ted, my plane's been hijacked."
HUME: Now, was she calm?
OLSON: She was very calm. She was completely in control.
HUME: Was she sort of whispering? Or was she speaking in a normal voice.
OLSON: No, she was speaking loud enough that I could hear her. I didn't feel that she was whispering. I said -- I asked her a couple of questions. And I'm not sure now the sequence in which I asked those questions.
But I learned from her that she had been in first class. She had been -- she and the other passengers had been herded to the back of the airplane. I asked her whether they, the hijackers, knew that she was calling. And she said, "No, they don't know."
( sounds like she was in the bathroom after all)
She indicated that they had used knifes and box-cutters to take over the plane. At some point, we got cut off. I immediately called the command center of the Department of Justice to let them know that my wife was on a plane that had been hijacked. I mainly wanted them know there was another hijacked plane out there. I didn't know whether anyone in...
HUME: What did they say when you called them?
OLSON: They just absorbed the information. And they promised to send someone down right away. I didn't know that I was going to get another call.

( Whom is he speaking of , his WIFE? of course she will try to call him back. He sounds like he is making an excuse for being on the phone when his wife who is about to die, just might call again?)

And I expected them to pass the information on to the appropriate people. I assumed that they did.
A few minutes later, another call came in from Barbara. I found out later that she was having, for some reason, to call collect and was having trouble getting through. You know how it is to get through to a government institution when you're calling collect.

( this is a whole can of worms. They call each other constantly (admittedly), they travel a lot, they are not dumb when it comes to cell phones. If it were a cell call, you dont have to call collect. The charges are billed to the account automatically, I have been in the cell industry for 15yrs, but any idiot with a cell can figure that out the first time you leave your city. How did he find out LATER she tried to make a collect call, did she tell him from the grave ? Remember this was the second and final call)

HUME: With a collect call, right.
OLSON: Well, she managed to -- Barbara was capable of doing practically anything if she set her mind to it. In retrospect, I'm not surprised that Barbara managed to get collect calls through.
HUME: You don't know whether it was on a regular cell phone or one of those air phones?
OLSON: No, I don't. I first of all assumed that it must have been on the airplane phone, and that she somehow didn't have access to her credit cards. Otherwise, she would have used her cell phone and called me.

(First, he assumed the OPPOSITE in the interview before this one, saying she was using a cell. Second, Barbra Olson just happened to forget her credit cards on a 4 day long trip? dont think so. Most people have caller ID ( I did in my office, but perhaps Ted Olsons is not as technically advanced as mine) and that would have registered as her from her cell phone.
HUME: Of course.
OLSON: So I think that was probably what it was. But Barbara got through a second time. And we exchanged the feelings that a husband and wife who are extraordinarily close, as we are, those kind of sentiments. And she assured me everything was going to be OK. I told her in the first conversation that the two hijacked planes had hit the World Trade Center.
And my impulse was that I had to tell her that. That was the kind of person she was. That's the kind of relationship that we had. I will always wonder whether I should have. But she -- her instinct was: "What do we do? What do we tell -- what shall I tell the pilot? What can I do?"
And I asked her where she was. And she tried to tell me where she was and what direction the aircraft appeared to be going.
HUME: It was probably hard to tell.
OLSON: I think it's impossible to tell. We've all looked out the window and we don't know exactly where we are. She said there were residences she could see. And she speculated that the aircraft was headed northeast. But I don't know whether that was correct or whether she really knew that or whether someone had told her that.
HUME: Did she describe the hijackers or say what they had said or anything of that kind?
OLSON: No. She -- the only thing she said with respect to that is the pilot had announced that the plane had been hijacked. She said it had been hijacked shortly after takeoff. By this time, the plane had been in the air -- again, I'm presuming that it took off on time -- for over an hour.
She implied that they had been circling around for a while. Not long after the second phone call, the connection was broken, by what I don't know. I was watching television in my office both before, after, and during these telephone calls. I began to hear reports of the explosion at the Pentagon. And I knew in my heart that was that aircraft.
And I also knew in my heart that she could not possibly have survived that kind of an explosion with a full load of fuel on a recently taken-off airplane. I wanted it not to be true. I wanted it not to be her plane. I wanted it -- I wanted, if it was her plane, to have somehow survived because she was in the back of the airplane. But we know that doesn't happen, not with those sorts of things.

http://www.unansweredquestions.net/time ... 91401.html


"It's easy to imagine an infinite number of situations where the government might legitimately give out false information," the Solicitor-General, Theodore Olson, told the court on Monday.

here is another interesting link to Olson ( Yes VIALS, but some good info anyway)
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steveseymo ... 1/lies.htm

Brad M
Registered User

Joined: Jun 18, 2003
Posts: 33
Location: USA
  Posted: Aug 05, 2003 - 02:36 PM   

Great post Brad,

In addition to the other contradictions, we have the issue of the other passengers (on the other planes only?) stating that they were told to call their families and tell them what was going on.

I know it's a pain to do here, but reading your e-mail version of this was much easier with the colorized highlights.



See also Part 2 of this discussion.

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